<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The emptiness of Liberal morality:</title>
	<atom:link href="http://uncivpro.com/2009/12/21/the-emptiness-of-liberal-morality/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://uncivpro.com/2009/12/21/the-emptiness-of-liberal-morality/</link>
	<description>Fomenting legal insurgency.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 21 May 2010 03:02:04 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Recording Surface :: :: January :: 2010</title>
		<link>http://uncivpro.com/2009/12/21/the-emptiness-of-liberal-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Recording Surface :: :: January :: 2010</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncivpro.com/?p=144#comment-40</guid>
		<description>[...] I will now give you my personal view of the arrests on Friday morning. In contrast to the peaceful and relatively responsible occupation during the week, some of the occupiers were planning a concert to which they hoped to draw a couple thousand people and which had no provisions for crowd control, fire regulations or substance controls. It could easily have resulted in anything from the whole building being trashed to kids being trampled to death. It was also likely to come into conflict with a final taking place in Wheeler Auditorium at 8 AM the next morning. The posters invited people to stay &#8220;until the cops kick in the door.&#8221; I don&#8217;t know what naivete or hubris or pure stupidity led the organizers of this event to imagine this was really going to happen. Frankly, between those plans and then the desperate cry to the faculty that went out to the faculty following the arrests&#8211; for bail, for assistance in reducing sentences, for rides back to Berkeley from Santa Rita, for retrieving backpacks from Wheeler, and for lenience on paper deadlines, I feel like we&#8217;re dealing with 10 year olds. It&#8217;s tedious, it&#8217;s infuriating and its wasting a lot of valuable time and energy while the greatest public university in the world is slipping away from us. It is also not lost on any of us that the number of students involved in this bullshit is remarkably tiny but that it has and will continue to drive away many other students who at one time were eager to become activists on behalf of the preserving the University of California. Indeed, what is striking in the anonymously forwarded garbage below is that there is not one mention of saving the university, only excitement about violence. The &#8220;cause,&#8221; if there ever was one, seems to have disappeared. (via) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I will now give you my personal view of the arrests on Friday morning. In contrast to the peaceful and relatively responsible occupation during the week, some of the occupiers were planning a concert to which they hoped to draw a couple thousand people and which had no provisions for crowd control, fire regulations or substance controls. It could easily have resulted in anything from the whole building being trashed to kids being trampled to death. It was also likely to come into conflict with a final taking place in Wheeler Auditorium at 8 AM the next morning. The posters invited people to stay &#8220;until the cops kick in the door.&#8221; I don&#8217;t know what naivete or hubris or pure stupidity led the organizers of this event to imagine this was really going to happen. Frankly, between those plans and then the desperate cry to the faculty that went out to the faculty following the arrests&#8211; for bail, for assistance in reducing sentences, for rides back to Berkeley from Santa Rita, for retrieving backpacks from Wheeler, and for lenience on paper deadlines, I feel like we&#8217;re dealing with 10 year olds. It&#8217;s tedious, it&#8217;s infuriating and its wasting a lot of valuable time and energy while the greatest public university in the world is slipping away from us. It is also not lost on any of us that the number of students involved in this bullshit is remarkably tiny but that it has and will continue to drive away many other students who at one time were eager to become activists on behalf of the preserving the University of California. Indeed, what is striking in the anonymously forwarded garbage below is that there is not one mention of saving the university, only excitement about violence. The &#8220;cause,&#8221; if there ever was one, seems to have disappeared. (via) [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The emptiness of Liberal morality &#171;</title>
		<link>http://uncivpro.com/2009/12/21/the-emptiness-of-liberal-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>The emptiness of Liberal morality &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncivpro.com/?p=144#comment-30</guid>
		<description>[...] emptiness of Liberal&#160;morality By k7cycas  An interesting article, re-posted from uncivil procedure (the comments posted on the site are also interesting to read). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] emptiness of Liberal&nbsp;morality By k7cycas  An interesting article, re-posted from uncivil procedure (the comments posted on the site are also interesting to read). [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: d</title>
		<link>http://uncivpro.com/2009/12/21/the-emptiness-of-liberal-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>d</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncivpro.com/?p=144#comment-24</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt; the decision-making process behind the mansion incident was not an open discussion and was made by a handful of individuals. The actors forced their politics upon the rest, and bystanders were caught up in it.&lt;/em&gt;

this argument, usually framed as a call for democratic decision-making, is very common these days. the idea, i suppose, is that all decisions should be made democratically and collectively and not by &quot;a handful of individuals.&quot; that&#039;s cool, but what does that actually mean? what is the collective body that is supposed to make these decisions? the general assembly? the GA does not plan actions; it delegates authority. SWAT? but it doesn&#039;t include everybody either. however you define it, this formulation of democratic decision-making falls apart when its mechanisms have to be explained. also, this assertion reinforces an authoritarian power dynamic: there is a body (somewhere) that must approve of your action, and if that body does not approve of it then it is condemned. this, i think, backs up one of the arguments of the original post: that condemnation of certain protest actions can be problematic because it tends towards an authorizing or hegemonic discourse that, in this case, sides with the administration.

furthermore, what happened at the chancellor&#039;s residence in no way &quot;forced its politics&quot; on anyone, and no &quot;bystanders&quot; were caught in it. unless by bystanders you mean people who were participating in the march...? again, this argument assumes that there is some coherent &quot;movement&quot; with clear and coherent rules of procedure -- this most definitely does not exist. rather, there&#039;s a variety of groups, organizations, individuals, and collectives that take it upon themselves to do certain things. while conceptually it can be grouped together as part of &quot;the protests,&quot; it in no way says anything about the GA that some people broke a planter pot and a light bulb at the chancellor&#039;s house. or does it? if so, how? through the media? but the media is totally out of our control and is capable of doing poor (or no) reporting no matter what we do. 

another (in my view more useful) way of thinking about democratic decision-making would be a decentralized model. certain bodies may exist for certain general coordinating purposes (e.g. the GA), but you can&#039;t plan an action with 100-200 people. rather, using a diversity of tactics, groups plan and do actions based on their analysis of the situation and whatever that common interest is that ties them to other groups organizing around similar issues. thus, you get actions like the anthro library study-in, the (first) wheeler occupation, and live week, which all generated momentum and brought new people in. none of those actions were planned or voted on -- much less proposed -- by a collective organizing body.

none of this is to say that the action at the chancellor&#039;s house was right or wrong; rather, it&#039;s the way decision-making is imagined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em> the decision-making process behind the mansion incident was not an open discussion and was made by a handful of individuals. The actors forced their politics upon the rest, and bystanders were caught up in it.</em></p>
<p>this argument, usually framed as a call for democratic decision-making, is very common these days. the idea, i suppose, is that all decisions should be made democratically and collectively and not by &#8220;a handful of individuals.&#8221; that&#8217;s cool, but what does that actually mean? what is the collective body that is supposed to make these decisions? the general assembly? the GA does not plan actions; it delegates authority. SWAT? but it doesn&#8217;t include everybody either. however you define it, this formulation of democratic decision-making falls apart when its mechanisms have to be explained. also, this assertion reinforces an authoritarian power dynamic: there is a body (somewhere) that must approve of your action, and if that body does not approve of it then it is condemned. this, i think, backs up one of the arguments of the original post: that condemnation of certain protest actions can be problematic because it tends towards an authorizing or hegemonic discourse that, in this case, sides with the administration.</p>
<p>furthermore, what happened at the chancellor&#8217;s residence in no way &#8220;forced its politics&#8221; on anyone, and no &#8220;bystanders&#8221; were caught in it. unless by bystanders you mean people who were participating in the march&#8230;? again, this argument assumes that there is some coherent &#8220;movement&#8221; with clear and coherent rules of procedure &#8212; this most definitely does not exist. rather, there&#8217;s a variety of groups, organizations, individuals, and collectives that take it upon themselves to do certain things. while conceptually it can be grouped together as part of &#8220;the protests,&#8221; it in no way says anything about the GA that some people broke a planter pot and a light bulb at the chancellor&#8217;s house. or does it? if so, how? through the media? but the media is totally out of our control and is capable of doing poor (or no) reporting no matter what we do. </p>
<p>another (in my view more useful) way of thinking about democratic decision-making would be a decentralized model. certain bodies may exist for certain general coordinating purposes (e.g. the GA), but you can&#8217;t plan an action with 100-200 people. rather, using a diversity of tactics, groups plan and do actions based on their analysis of the situation and whatever that common interest is that ties them to other groups organizing around similar issues. thus, you get actions like the anthro library study-in, the (first) wheeler occupation, and live week, which all generated momentum and brought new people in. none of those actions were planned or voted on &#8212; much less proposed &#8212; by a collective organizing body.</p>
<p>none of this is to say that the action at the chancellor&#8217;s house was right or wrong; rather, it&#8217;s the way decision-making is imagined.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: als</title>
		<link>http://uncivpro.com/2009/12/21/the-emptiness-of-liberal-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>als</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncivpro.com/?p=144#comment-22</guid>
		<description>I really didn&#039;t intend to take a side, one way or the other, on the attacks on the Chancellor&#039;s mansion. What the article focuses on instead is an unthinking commitment to &quot;non-violent&quot; discourse. Militancy, adventurism, neo-colonialism? A lot of explanation is due before any action can be labeled with those terms. Especially neo-colonialism. I&#039;m particularly curious as to how a group of 50 or so people at the Chancellor&#039;s mansion can be categorically lumped with global financial institutions and Western governments driving a neo-colonial agenda on large segments of the world&#039;s population. Daresay a critical analysis of how this rhetorical act makes any sense at all.

Again, there&#039;s nothing in this article that talks about being &#039;with us or against us,&#039; but it merely questions that base assumption that there is an objectively reasonable point of view. These are different assertions. But yes, there are &#039;sides&#039; in any struggle, and sometimes people actually have to pick one. 

Where is there a false dichotomy? Hasn&#039;t the UCB administration already responded with great force and violence to the most liberal demands and actions? People were brutalized outside of the 11/20 Wheeler occupation because they showed solidarity with the occupation. I maintain that attempting to achieve even modest change at UC will elicit violence, but I think that point is already proven. To stand up and blame students and workers for this violence is to condone that already perpetrated by UC as legitimate. 

Even if the incident at the Chancellor&#039;s mansion occurred as UCB described (which is highly unlikely considering countervailing statements and the lack of criminal charges from the incident), I still question the value of holding a state-wide student movement accountable for the actions of some 50 people. I also do not think that the worst accounting of the incident at the mansion rises to the level of sheer malice exhibited by UCB admin at the 11/20 occupation and during the Wheeler Hall arrests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really didn&#8217;t intend to take a side, one way or the other, on the attacks on the Chancellor&#8217;s mansion. What the article focuses on instead is an unthinking commitment to &#8220;non-violent&#8221; discourse. Militancy, adventurism, neo-colonialism? A lot of explanation is due before any action can be labeled with those terms. Especially neo-colonialism. I&#8217;m particularly curious as to how a group of 50 or so people at the Chancellor&#8217;s mansion can be categorically lumped with global financial institutions and Western governments driving a neo-colonial agenda on large segments of the world&#8217;s population. Daresay a critical analysis of how this rhetorical act makes any sense at all.</p>
<p>Again, there&#8217;s nothing in this article that talks about being &#8216;with us or against us,&#8217; but it merely questions that base assumption that there is an objectively reasonable point of view. These are different assertions. But yes, there are &#8217;sides&#8217; in any struggle, and sometimes people actually have to pick one. </p>
<p>Where is there a false dichotomy? Hasn&#8217;t the UCB administration already responded with great force and violence to the most liberal demands and actions? People were brutalized outside of the 11/20 Wheeler occupation because they showed solidarity with the occupation. I maintain that attempting to achieve even modest change at UC will elicit violence, but I think that point is already proven. To stand up and blame students and workers for this violence is to condone that already perpetrated by UC as legitimate. </p>
<p>Even if the incident at the Chancellor&#8217;s mansion occurred as UCB described (which is highly unlikely considering countervailing statements and the lack of criminal charges from the incident), I still question the value of holding a state-wide student movement accountable for the actions of some 50 people. I also do not think that the worst accounting of the incident at the mansion rises to the level of sheer malice exhibited by UCB admin at the 11/20 occupation and during the Wheeler Hall arrests.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alejandro</title>
		<link>http://uncivpro.com/2009/12/21/the-emptiness-of-liberal-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Alejandro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncivpro.com/?p=144#comment-21</guid>
		<description>first, militancy is not adventurism. what happened at the mansion was not militancy, it only reflected how the actors acted within the boundaries that society has set up for them. There was never a challenge to the system in what they did.

There was nothing militant about it, the acts of destruction were acts of adventurism couched in discourse of militancy that revealed the cowardice of those involved, if for no other reason than they let others go down for things they didn&#039;t have the privilege of deciding on. I would even daresay that it reflects a neo-colonialist attitude, if not outright colonialist attitude, toward the problems we are all facing.

The article has absolutely nothing to do with nonviolence; it doesn&#039;t even address nonviolence. The subtitle, &quot;why nonviolence discourse is destructive&quot; foreshadowed the straw man fallacy that was erected throughout the article. It defines nonviolence as an opposition to the violence of the mansion incident, and then proceeds to justify the acts as not-as-violent as what the university perpetrates as if that vindicates the actions taken.  If anything, this article reflects the futility of violent actions in response to the multiple forms of violence that the university engages in:  civil, political, economic, cultural, and social.

Does this author fancy himself a neo-con?  I ask in all honesty, because the discourse of your with us or against us, you agree fully with us or you agree with them, is a tactic that was honed by neo-cons to the level of an art form.  It is also false.  It is extremely irresponsible and ignorant.

&quot;To think differently is to not only misunderstand power relationships and structure of social regulation, it is to stand on the side of state violence.&quot;  What?  What fantasy land do this author live in wherein they actually believe in false dichotomies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>first, militancy is not adventurism. what happened at the mansion was not militancy, it only reflected how the actors acted within the boundaries that society has set up for them. There was never a challenge to the system in what they did.</p>
<p>There was nothing militant about it, the acts of destruction were acts of adventurism couched in discourse of militancy that revealed the cowardice of those involved, if for no other reason than they let others go down for things they didn&#8217;t have the privilege of deciding on. I would even daresay that it reflects a neo-colonialist attitude, if not outright colonialist attitude, toward the problems we are all facing.</p>
<p>The article has absolutely nothing to do with nonviolence; it doesn&#8217;t even address nonviolence. The subtitle, &#8220;why nonviolence discourse is destructive&#8221; foreshadowed the straw man fallacy that was erected throughout the article. It defines nonviolence as an opposition to the violence of the mansion incident, and then proceeds to justify the acts as not-as-violent as what the university perpetrates as if that vindicates the actions taken.  If anything, this article reflects the futility of violent actions in response to the multiple forms of violence that the university engages in:  civil, political, economic, cultural, and social.</p>
<p>Does this author fancy himself a neo-con?  I ask in all honesty, because the discourse of your with us or against us, you agree fully with us or you agree with them, is a tactic that was honed by neo-cons to the level of an art form.  It is also false.  It is extremely irresponsible and ignorant.</p>
<p>&#8220;To think differently is to not only misunderstand power relationships and structure of social regulation, it is to stand on the side of state violence.&#8221;  What?  What fantasy land do this author live in wherein they actually believe in false dichotomies?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
